
laknar
09-11 07:27 PM
Cannot join the rally but contributed 100$. Go IV.
Google Order #805244100043575
Google Order #805244100043575
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qualified_trash
01-03 08:02 PM
truthinspector,
Please stop bashing India or any country for that matter. Although I
am waiting for a GC here in America, I always think India is a fabulous
country. There are merits, de merits in every country. But it is people like you who always look at the negative side (according to you that is ) of India and think US has absolutely no negatives that create the wrong perception about India in peoples minds.
Your negativity stems from your low self esteem and lack of self confidence.
Blame your country/system for everything and try to find an escape elsewhere. If you are capable chances are you will succeed any where (Including in India) like many people have.....
Thanks and I dont need your response.
_________________________________________
for all of you sharpening the knives to get truthinspector, let me start by saying that he/she has only mentioned their opinion and/or facts. they may not have been presented in a politically correct manner.
truthinspector never mentioned that the US has NO NEGATIVES........... purely stated why India is still not and (I am not sure about the 500 years - seems like an arbitrary number) will not in the near future, be a developed country and presented his/her reasons for the hypothesis..........
this forum is better served if you can show how and why truthinspector's list is incorrect instead of talking about self-confidence, self-esteem and all the other intangibles that you have no way of gauging without actually knowing truthinspector as a person.........
you are the one indulging in personal attacks, while truthinspector is only stating opinion and/or facts....
the truth always hurts. some more so than the others........
Please stop bashing India or any country for that matter. Although I
am waiting for a GC here in America, I always think India is a fabulous
country. There are merits, de merits in every country. But it is people like you who always look at the negative side (according to you that is ) of India and think US has absolutely no negatives that create the wrong perception about India in peoples minds.
Your negativity stems from your low self esteem and lack of self confidence.
Blame your country/system for everything and try to find an escape elsewhere. If you are capable chances are you will succeed any where (Including in India) like many people have.....
Thanks and I dont need your response.
_________________________________________
for all of you sharpening the knives to get truthinspector, let me start by saying that he/she has only mentioned their opinion and/or facts. they may not have been presented in a politically correct manner.
truthinspector never mentioned that the US has NO NEGATIVES........... purely stated why India is still not and (I am not sure about the 500 years - seems like an arbitrary number) will not in the near future, be a developed country and presented his/her reasons for the hypothesis..........
this forum is better served if you can show how and why truthinspector's list is incorrect instead of talking about self-confidence, self-esteem and all the other intangibles that you have no way of gauging without actually knowing truthinspector as a person.........
you are the one indulging in personal attacks, while truthinspector is only stating opinion and/or facts....
the truth always hurts. some more so than the others........

diptam
08-13 02:24 PM
Thanks - I'll write a mail to the HR head to release 7001 on my request and will mention that they don't have to take responsibility. Enough is enough - i got another 2 yr H extension in July 08 so i should be good,anyway.
I'll keep you guys posted when i receive 7001 from HR by mail and i'll send it to Ombudsman office (along with that cover letter) immediately.
You should be fine. Everything we are doing is legal. We are not doing anything illegal by requesting Ombudsman's office to look into this processing delays.
I'll keep you guys posted when i receive 7001 from HR by mail and i'll send it to Ombudsman office (along with that cover letter) immediately.
You should be fine. Everything we are doing is legal. We are not doing anything illegal by requesting Ombudsman's office to look into this processing delays.
2011 Lindsay Lohan#39;s mugshot.
add78
06-23 08:39 AM
Good morning...
Lets target to reach 25k by the end of this week.
800 more to get to 20K = 8 contributions @100 each, and then
5000 more to get to 25k = 50 contributions @100 each
And we have "thousands" of registered members
And there are "hundreds of thousands" of people who benefited from last year's July visa bulletin due to IV's efforts.
Folks, now more than ever, we need you to be just a little less self centered and open up your hearts, not for some other people, but your own cause.
Your own cause guys, We need funds to lobby for the 3 Lofgren bills!!!!
If the July bulleting could get us EADs and APs, imagine what those 3 bills can do - MAGIC, WONDER, THE HOLY GRAIL A.K.A. THE G.C.
So please, please, please, do what you can.
Lets target to reach 25k by the end of this week.
800 more to get to 20K = 8 contributions @100 each, and then
5000 more to get to 25k = 50 contributions @100 each
And we have "thousands" of registered members
And there are "hundreds of thousands" of people who benefited from last year's July visa bulletin due to IV's efforts.
Folks, now more than ever, we need you to be just a little less self centered and open up your hearts, not for some other people, but your own cause.
Your own cause guys, We need funds to lobby for the 3 Lofgren bills!!!!
If the July bulleting could get us EADs and APs, imagine what those 3 bills can do - MAGIC, WONDER, THE HOLY GRAIL A.K.A. THE G.C.
So please, please, please, do what you can.
more...
vin13
03-12 12:30 PM
Pappu,
I have been a donor since 2006 and donated about $1000+ through 3 or 5 one time payments and monthly subscription of $20.
But I discontinued my monthly subscription seeing absence of IV core for long time in 2008. But more than that I was completely pissed off with free riders with one time questions and then disappearing, nanny questions, people sharing jokes on this forum, people commenting on the internal matters of their own country and so on. I felt the forum was being used for all other matters except the one issue it was formed to address: "RETROGRESSION in EB IMMIGRATION".
I am fully supportive of paid membership and welcome this step. I thank IV admin for the same.
Now my questions are
What is the vision / mission/ purpose behind the "donor forum"?
whether members will still be able to post questions for free and get answers? And of course vanish after that.
Would the anti immigrants still be able to use our forum and make posts to tease us?
And most importantly do I have start monthly subscription again to gain access to this forum? If yes, Can I just restart my $20 monthly subscription?
I agree with you. I hope we get some clear vision/mission/purpose behing the 'donor forum'
I have been a donor since 2006 and donated about $1000+ through 3 or 5 one time payments and monthly subscription of $20.
But I discontinued my monthly subscription seeing absence of IV core for long time in 2008. But more than that I was completely pissed off with free riders with one time questions and then disappearing, nanny questions, people sharing jokes on this forum, people commenting on the internal matters of their own country and so on. I felt the forum was being used for all other matters except the one issue it was formed to address: "RETROGRESSION in EB IMMIGRATION".
I am fully supportive of paid membership and welcome this step. I thank IV admin for the same.
Now my questions are
What is the vision / mission/ purpose behind the "donor forum"?
whether members will still be able to post questions for free and get answers? And of course vanish after that.
Would the anti immigrants still be able to use our forum and make posts to tease us?
And most importantly do I have start monthly subscription again to gain access to this forum? If yes, Can I just restart my $20 monthly subscription?
I agree with you. I hope we get some clear vision/mission/purpose behing the 'donor forum'
Bodran
06-01 04:05 PM
That means your son is also able to file 485, right? In that case he will not age out once an AOS is submitted for him. I am assuming your 140 will be approved before he turns 21.
Thank you for your response......
Yes I believe paperwork will be filed for all my dependants concurrently. Does it even matter when the I140 is approved?
It seems that under the new law his cutoff date is Jun 1 since that is when my priority date will be current so as long as he applies for a green card within one year he is ok.
So if we apply concurrently when is his green card application deemed to have been applied for? When we file concurrently or only when and if the 140is approved.
What do you think?
Thank you for your response......
Yes I believe paperwork will be filed for all my dependants concurrently. Does it even matter when the I140 is approved?
It seems that under the new law his cutoff date is Jun 1 since that is when my priority date will be current so as long as he applies for a green card within one year he is ok.
So if we apply concurrently when is his green card application deemed to have been applied for? When we file concurrently or only when and if the 140is approved.
What do you think?
more...
adde72
07-05 11:35 PM
Dugg! and posted a comment...
Please also digg comments.
Dugg and posted comment ... this is great chance for US ( legal immigrants ) to solve our issues ...please participate activly ....I can see the light
Please also digg comments.
Dugg and posted comment ... this is great chance for US ( legal immigrants ) to solve our issues ...please participate activly ....I can see the light
2010 Matthew Rutler,
India_USA
09-27 08:45 AM
The number of years spent waiting does add to the frustration, but the feeling of being stuck is something we share irrespective of the years... brotherhood/sisterhood!
more...
krishmunn
02-24 10:00 AM
If one can handle stress, anxiety and trauma while waiting for GC, then its worth waiting. If not, people like me start looking at options. I applied for Canadian PR in 2008 and just did CDN landing last week which gave my family feel of "cold weather".
I will be completing my 5 years stay in USA this spring. Same story here - I never visited my home country since there is a lot of uncertainty around getting back.
We are 100% sure that we don't want to continue living in USA. Now its matter of time, until summer 2010, that we move on. Just not sure yet - whether it is my home country or Canada. If I get a job back home in India, I would love to do that. From what I have heard from friends, and from recruiters response, in home country, I think economy is picking up. I hope to get some decent job offer based on my unique job profile; if it doesn't work, we will move on to Canada.
Bhattji
I am planning to do the same ... apply for CDN PR. How much time did it take for you ? Also, much time do they allow for landing ? Do you need a US Visa to return after CDN Landing ?
I will be completing my 5 years stay in USA this spring. Same story here - I never visited my home country since there is a lot of uncertainty around getting back.
We are 100% sure that we don't want to continue living in USA. Now its matter of time, until summer 2010, that we move on. Just not sure yet - whether it is my home country or Canada. If I get a job back home in India, I would love to do that. From what I have heard from friends, and from recruiters response, in home country, I think economy is picking up. I hope to get some decent job offer based on my unique job profile; if it doesn't work, we will move on to Canada.
Bhattji
I am planning to do the same ... apply for CDN PR. How much time did it take for you ? Also, much time do they allow for landing ? Do you need a US Visa to return after CDN Landing ?
hair Matthew Rutler,
makemygc
10-25 11:59 PM
I've sent the mails and strongly encourage everyone to come out and take an early action before this gets worse. Even if you are not affected right now, support the cause to make sure that you will not be affected in the future.
Also, just wanted to point out some notes that letter says that Yates memo is attached, so if you are blindly copy and pasting make sure that you attach the Memo to your email or a copy to your letter.
I would suggest OP to add the copy of yates memo and the follow up memo to the posting.
Thanks
MakeMyGC
Issue/Background:
It seems USCIS is not following AC21 regulations in some cases � especially when underlying I140 is revoked by previous employer � and are incorrectly denying I485 applications. As we know, AC21 regulations and related guidelines, provide some relief and allow job changes without affecting the I485 application. As per these rules if the employee changes employment after 180 days of submitting I485 application, there is no need to redo I140 even-if old employer revokes the old I140.
In recent days USCIS seems to be denying lot of I485 applications � ignoring their own AC21 regulations. A few of IV volunteers (pd_recapturing, gc4me, chanduv et al) have started an effort to address this. You can get more info on this, at this thread: http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21716.
This issue can affect a lot of us and it negates all the flexibility/relief that we acquired by getting EAD�s and advantages we got thru recent admin reform.
What needs to be done:
After some initial discussions and planning (thanks to pd-capturing, chandu, et al) it is decided to write letters to Ombudsman and service center heads to point out this and request them to correct it ASAP. Please participate and send letters. To succeed we need to send it in thousands.
Pasting the letter and the addresses below.
More info: (thanks to gc4me for addresses and letter template):
======================
Everyone please send the letter/email to 3 persons.
1. Ombudsman
2. Director, NSC
3. Director, TSC
======================
Ombudsman:
cisombudsman@dhs.gov
Mailing Address:
Citizenship and Immigration Services Ombudsman
ATTN: Recommendations
United States Department of Homeland Security
Mail Stop 1225
Washington, D.C. 20528-1225
=======================
Nebraska Service Center
Director: Gerard Heinauer
General Correspondence (Inquiries) (Sending applications or petitions to this address will delay their processing)
USCIS NSC
P.O. Box 82521
Lincoln, NE 68501-2521
NOTE: If using overnight delivery by any private service provider, send your package to:
USCIS
Nebraska Service Center
850 S Street
P.O. Box (Insert Correct P.O. Box Number)
Lincoln, NE 68508
Be sure to include the appropriate P.O. Box number on the shipping label.
Customer Feedback:
Contact:
Assistant Chief
Internal Security and Investigative Operations
USCIS, 111 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Suite 7000
Washington, DC 20529
or email: USCIS-COMPLAINT@DHS.GOV
=====================
Director: David Roark
General
Correspondence:
USCIS TSC
PO Box 851488
Mesquite, TX 75185-1488
Customer Feedback:
Contact:
Assistant Chief
Internal Security and Investigative Operations
USCIS, 111 Massachusetts Ave., N.W.
Ste 7000, Washington, DC 20529
============================
Letter
============================
Date: Today()
To
Mr. Michael Timothy Dougherty
The Ombudsman
Citizenship and Immigration Services Ombudsman
United States Department of Homeland Security
Mail Stop 1225
Washington, D.C. 20528-1225
Re: Issues caused by USCIS not following AC21 guidelines
Dear Sir,
This is to bring your attention to the issues caused by USCIS not following AC21 guidelines.
The American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (AC21) allows for a change of employer on any I-485 Adjustment of Status Application that has been pending for 180 days or more, without the need to file a new I-140 petition, provided the applicant�s new employment is in a similar/same occupation.
According to the Memo released by William R Yates on August 4th 2003, the original I-140 is valid if it is approvable and form I-485 has been pending for more than 180 days. (Attached for your reference is the memo dated August 4th 2003 from William R Yates and the follow-up memo dated May 12th 2005 with relevant sections highlighted).
Due to unreasonable delays caused by retrogression, many candidates have lawfully changed employers in accordance with the AC21 statute. Even though there is no requirement that USCIS be notified after a job change, some applicants have done so to prove that they are in compliance with this regulation. If the previous employer has withdrawn the previously approved I-140, AC21 guidelines state that if the applicant has not submitted evidence of a new qualifying offer of employment, the applicant be sent an NOID (Notice of Intent to Deny) to deny the I-485 application or a RFE (Request for Evidence) . If the response to the NOID/RFE is timely and indicates that the alien has a new offer of employment in the same or similar occupation, USCIS may consider the approved Form I-140 to remain valid with respect to the new offer of employment and may continue regular processing of the Form I-485.
Over the past few months, a disturbing pattern has emerged with cases where the applicant has changed employers. USCIS has started to deny I-485applications where the underlying I-140 has been withdrawn by the previous employer without issuing an NOID or RFE. Even those applicants who have notified USCIS of change in employers have had their I-485 denied.
After the denial of I-485, the applicant has to file a MTR (Motion to reconsider) with USCIS to re-open the case. In addition to the financial burden of filing and legal fees, the applicant has to stop working because of the denial of the I-485 until the case is re-opened. This could be anywhere from a month to a few months. Needless to say, employers are unwilling to keep the job position open for such a long period and the applicant in most cases is looking at potential loss of employment. The applicant who has followed the law to the fullest extent is unfairly punished on account of USCIS not following the AC21 provisions.
This is a request for you to intervene to ensure that the AC21 regulations are followed when adjudicating an I-485 application. If the applicant notifies USCIS of a change in employment under AC21, this should be added the applicant�s physical file and electronic records. If there is no such notification and the previous employer withdraws the I-140, the applicant should be issued a NOID/RFE instead of denying the I-485 application.
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact.
Thank you in advance for your kind attention and cooperation in this matter.
Thanks,
Your Name
Your Address
Your Phone Number
Also, just wanted to point out some notes that letter says that Yates memo is attached, so if you are blindly copy and pasting make sure that you attach the Memo to your email or a copy to your letter.
I would suggest OP to add the copy of yates memo and the follow up memo to the posting.
Thanks
MakeMyGC
Issue/Background:
It seems USCIS is not following AC21 regulations in some cases � especially when underlying I140 is revoked by previous employer � and are incorrectly denying I485 applications. As we know, AC21 regulations and related guidelines, provide some relief and allow job changes without affecting the I485 application. As per these rules if the employee changes employment after 180 days of submitting I485 application, there is no need to redo I140 even-if old employer revokes the old I140.
In recent days USCIS seems to be denying lot of I485 applications � ignoring their own AC21 regulations. A few of IV volunteers (pd_recapturing, gc4me, chanduv et al) have started an effort to address this. You can get more info on this, at this thread: http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21716.
This issue can affect a lot of us and it negates all the flexibility/relief that we acquired by getting EAD�s and advantages we got thru recent admin reform.
What needs to be done:
After some initial discussions and planning (thanks to pd-capturing, chandu, et al) it is decided to write letters to Ombudsman and service center heads to point out this and request them to correct it ASAP. Please participate and send letters. To succeed we need to send it in thousands.
Pasting the letter and the addresses below.
More info: (thanks to gc4me for addresses and letter template):
======================
Everyone please send the letter/email to 3 persons.
1. Ombudsman
2. Director, NSC
3. Director, TSC
======================
Ombudsman:
cisombudsman@dhs.gov
Mailing Address:
Citizenship and Immigration Services Ombudsman
ATTN: Recommendations
United States Department of Homeland Security
Mail Stop 1225
Washington, D.C. 20528-1225
=======================
Nebraska Service Center
Director: Gerard Heinauer
General Correspondence (Inquiries) (Sending applications or petitions to this address will delay their processing)
USCIS NSC
P.O. Box 82521
Lincoln, NE 68501-2521
NOTE: If using overnight delivery by any private service provider, send your package to:
USCIS
Nebraska Service Center
850 S Street
P.O. Box (Insert Correct P.O. Box Number)
Lincoln, NE 68508
Be sure to include the appropriate P.O. Box number on the shipping label.
Customer Feedback:
Contact:
Assistant Chief
Internal Security and Investigative Operations
USCIS, 111 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Suite 7000
Washington, DC 20529
or email: USCIS-COMPLAINT@DHS.GOV
=====================
Director: David Roark
General
Correspondence:
USCIS TSC
PO Box 851488
Mesquite, TX 75185-1488
Customer Feedback:
Contact:
Assistant Chief
Internal Security and Investigative Operations
USCIS, 111 Massachusetts Ave., N.W.
Ste 7000, Washington, DC 20529
============================
Letter
============================
Date: Today()
To
Mr. Michael Timothy Dougherty
The Ombudsman
Citizenship and Immigration Services Ombudsman
United States Department of Homeland Security
Mail Stop 1225
Washington, D.C. 20528-1225
Re: Issues caused by USCIS not following AC21 guidelines
Dear Sir,
This is to bring your attention to the issues caused by USCIS not following AC21 guidelines.
The American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (AC21) allows for a change of employer on any I-485 Adjustment of Status Application that has been pending for 180 days or more, without the need to file a new I-140 petition, provided the applicant�s new employment is in a similar/same occupation.
According to the Memo released by William R Yates on August 4th 2003, the original I-140 is valid if it is approvable and form I-485 has been pending for more than 180 days. (Attached for your reference is the memo dated August 4th 2003 from William R Yates and the follow-up memo dated May 12th 2005 with relevant sections highlighted).
Due to unreasonable delays caused by retrogression, many candidates have lawfully changed employers in accordance with the AC21 statute. Even though there is no requirement that USCIS be notified after a job change, some applicants have done so to prove that they are in compliance with this regulation. If the previous employer has withdrawn the previously approved I-140, AC21 guidelines state that if the applicant has not submitted evidence of a new qualifying offer of employment, the applicant be sent an NOID (Notice of Intent to Deny) to deny the I-485 application or a RFE (Request for Evidence) . If the response to the NOID/RFE is timely and indicates that the alien has a new offer of employment in the same or similar occupation, USCIS may consider the approved Form I-140 to remain valid with respect to the new offer of employment and may continue regular processing of the Form I-485.
Over the past few months, a disturbing pattern has emerged with cases where the applicant has changed employers. USCIS has started to deny I-485applications where the underlying I-140 has been withdrawn by the previous employer without issuing an NOID or RFE. Even those applicants who have notified USCIS of change in employers have had their I-485 denied.
After the denial of I-485, the applicant has to file a MTR (Motion to reconsider) with USCIS to re-open the case. In addition to the financial burden of filing and legal fees, the applicant has to stop working because of the denial of the I-485 until the case is re-opened. This could be anywhere from a month to a few months. Needless to say, employers are unwilling to keep the job position open for such a long period and the applicant in most cases is looking at potential loss of employment. The applicant who has followed the law to the fullest extent is unfairly punished on account of USCIS not following the AC21 provisions.
This is a request for you to intervene to ensure that the AC21 regulations are followed when adjudicating an I-485 application. If the applicant notifies USCIS of a change in employment under AC21, this should be added the applicant�s physical file and electronic records. If there is no such notification and the previous employer withdraws the I-140, the applicant should be issued a NOID/RFE instead of denying the I-485 application.
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact.
Thank you in advance for your kind attention and cooperation in this matter.
Thanks,
Your Name
Your Address
Your Phone Number
more...
gc28262
03-04 12:58 PM
See the link
http://www.immigration-information.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7065
http://www.immigration-information.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7065
hot beau matthew rutler have
glus
04-30 02:23 PM
its working now...
more...
house matthew rutler,
chandsri81
04-27 06:53 AM
Thank you! I have sent them my I-140 and 485 and also past and present EADs to show that this is something that needs to be renewed every 2 years.
Keeping my fingers crossed now..
Keeping my fingers crossed now..
tattoo matthew rutler outside Mar
9years
01-10 06:15 PM
Finally a happy ending to my green card journey. Received our cards on Saturday. Thank You IV and I wish all the best for everyone.
Congrats Vayumahesh. Very nice happy new year gift to your family USCIS gave/you earned.
Congrats Vayumahesh. Very nice happy new year gift to your family USCIS gave/you earned.
more...
pictures Matthew Rutler took little
eb3_nepa
07-14 01:01 PM
here is my response thru my Bank Onlie pay
Immigration Voice
Immigration Voice
$ 5.00 07/18/2008 7Y9YG-2BT90
Please Help IV to help us
Thanks
Bestofall
PD-EB2 Mar 2005 India
AP-EAD received
Thanks Bestofall. Admins/Moderators, can we have this campaign on the homepage?
Immigration Voice
Immigration Voice
$ 5.00 07/18/2008 7Y9YG-2BT90
Please Help IV to help us
Thanks
Bestofall
PD-EB2 Mar 2005 India
AP-EAD received
Thanks Bestofall. Admins/Moderators, can we have this campaign on the homepage?
dresses news stories world spice
santb1975
05-22 01:24 PM
Thankyou. You are our first contributor after our relaunch.
Wandmaker - I will add your name to the list tonight
I just sent a check of $100 via online bill payment to IV. I've also set up recurring contribution checks of $25 every month beginning June. I strongly believe in IV's cause and hope that many folks will come forward. This is the time to act to help ourselves, otherwise we'll be left behind. Keep up the good work.
Wandmaker - I will add your name to the list tonight
I just sent a check of $100 via online bill payment to IV. I've also set up recurring contribution checks of $25 every month beginning June. I strongly believe in IV's cause and hope that many folks will come forward. This is the time to act to help ourselves, otherwise we'll be left behind. Keep up the good work.
more...
makeup Matthew Rutler on Thursday
trueguy
02-26 12:01 PM
Forget about LIFO or FIFO, this year EB2 won't be getting enough visa's from spill-over. They would be giving majority of spill-over to EB3-ROW/I/C and EB2 would be getting very small fraction. And how's that is possible for that they would play around the law ( by making EB2 current).
Thanks'
MDix
On what basis you are saying that? Do you have any data/links to support this?
Thanks'
MDix
On what basis you are saying that? Do you have any data/links to support this?
girlfriend boyfriend Matthew Rutler.

Libra
09-11 08:19 PM
thank you pstvak for contribution. if you need help you can contact one of the IV member on
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12441 thread.
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12441 thread.
hairstyles aguilera ate all the to
vactorboy29
03-05 12:54 PM
I saw soft LUD on my 485 applications.I will update if any thing happens.
WeldonSprings
05-02 03:27 PM
That comment was made for Family Visas, since everyone who applies on Family Visa, might not eventually get it. I read here that King said that everyon on EAD and AP is getting a free ride even thought here green card might get rejected. What does he mean by that. I tahught every process goes thorugha security check. such as I 140, H1b, AP and even EAD.
manishs7
07-20 04:13 PM
i Will vote for his (MCcain) great great grandson when I get citizenship (and if I am alive)
Well this message should go out to immigrant American voters ..
Let's expose their real face...
Well this message should go out to immigrant American voters ..
Let's expose their real face...
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